Hording your pennies?
 

I'm a silver bug, (mostly 90% junk halves and silver eagles) but have any of you started to hord your pennies?

At today's copper prices a pre-1982 penny is worth over 1.5 cents. I'm not talking about numismatic value, but the copper value of the penny. 1962-1982 pennies are 95% copper and 5% zinc with a weight of 3.11 g. 1982 - date are 99.2% zinc and .8% copper (copper plate) with a weigh of 2.5 g.

The problem of course is sorting them out and storage. To my knowledge there is no machine that will sort them out. But one could weigh a roll and determine if they hold many pre-1992 ones.

Someday the price of zinc will increase enough that all pennies will be worh more as scrap than their face value. Zinc has doubled in price since a year ago according to Bloomberg.

So, I don't consider zinc coins to be "garbage" as this picture says.:D

Re: Hording your pennies?
 

I vote no, but I do have a change jar I always put change in. If it becomes worthwhile at some point i'll sift through it before I spend them and set them aside, they might actually be spendable one day when dollars are not.

Re: Hording your pennies?
 

Sorting them out could be worth while for those who are unable to do other work.

Re: Hording your pennies?
 

Ok I'm going fishing here. Since the beginning of this year, I have been buying Brinks boxes of pennies. There are 2500 in each box (50 rolls). I buy 4 boxes at a time, I have kept records of the percent copper in each box. It ranges from as low as 23 percent up to as high as 36 percent copper. I get about 8 wheat pennies in each box, an occational dime, an occational oddity (from other countries). I use a machine that I more or less invented (combined existing technology) to sort the pennies from copper to zinc. It has a very high accuracy rate, perhaps only 1 to 3 misses per box (2500). The "misses" are usually wheat pennies and even a 1900 indian head. The machine sorts at a rate of 280 pennies per minute, but needs to be hand fed. I cut the plastic covers off the pennies and then turn on the machine and hand feed it for about 10 minutes. It jambs occationally, where I have to turn the machine upside down and get out a small screwdriver to pick the jambed coin.
I also bought a Brandt automatic coin wrapping machine on Ebay, and re-wrap my Zinc coins and return them to the same bank, and use them to purchase more (usually 4 boxes per week or 10,000 coins.). I pondered the copper/zinc issue for about 2 years before coming up with this idea. I have looked into a patent on the process and found it to be about $10,000 to $15,000 which I feel is way more than I can justify at this time. I am wondering how much interest there would be in a product like this and how much somebody would be willing to pay if they wanted to sort more quickly.

Re: Hording your pennies?
 

That is about the percentage that I got out of a lot smaller sample. Your machine sounds like it could be a winner. :clap2: A guy with a good machine, stong back, and truck could clean-up early in the game. The real money though would be quickly made in selling such a machine.

Do you have any problem with the bank providing you with the boxes? If you weigh a box can you tell if its worth opening or not?

Re: Hording your pennies?
 

I've just sorted through some pennies and about half way through it dawned on me. When TSHTF the demand for copper will plummet and they will likely be worth much less. They will still be worth more than paper, but for all the work you might not end up with any significant purchasing power. If you have a machine like the previous poster and sold the copper while the economy was still going OK its different, but saving them for when TSHSF may not be worth the effort.

Re: Hording your pennies?
 

True, but when it hits the fan the industrial demand for silver (and gold) will plummet too for at least a while. Some think that copper pennies will be used to buy small items. But not as small as the gumballs in gumball machines of today.:D

Re: Hording your pennies?
 

Ummm... remember 1943? They made pennies out of steel so that copper could go to ammunition. I guess it depends on what kind of "S" you expect to hit the "F".

Re: Hording your pennies?
 

Re: Hording your pennies?
 

I guess some would be canky seeing you come in.:D But you seem to keep things wrapped up for them. A flower or two now and then might help.

If you do the math. 2500 X 3.11 g will = a box of of 100% copper coins. 2500 X 2.5 g will = a box of !00% zinc coins. A smart guy (not me) will be able to tell you the weight of a box with less than 25% copper coins.

I like your ideas though.

Re: Hording your pennies?
 

Don't forget to factor the "tare weight". Weigh an empty box with all of the wrappers to make sure that you know how much to subtract from the weight of a full box.

Re: Hording your pennies?
 

But that variable would remain the same with each box. Wouldn't it?

Re: Hording your pennies?
 

Correct. I just mentioned it in case you want to run a formula to determine the exact weight of the actual coins in order to figure out how many copper coins are contained in any unopened box.

I'm sure there would be a formula that could determine this. Then maybe you could take your scale to the bank and be choosy about which box you take home!

Re: Hording your pennies?
 

Pure copper box is 2500 times 3.11 = 7775
7775 / 454(grams per LB) = 17.125 lbs
Pure Zinc boxe is 2500 times 2.5g = 6250
6250 / 454 (grams per lb) = 13.766lbs

Therefore 2500 times 25% is 625 times 3.11g is 1943.75
Plus 1875 times 2.5 is 4687.5
4687.5 plus 1943 equals 6562/454g=14.45 lbs

Whew,:albertein So any box heavier than 14.45 lbs should be 25% copper or more up to 17.125 lbs for 100% copper.

Re: Hording your pennies?
 

Plus tare weights which I have never calculated, Yet.

Re: Hording your pennies?
 

You guys are going about it wrong.

If you think by buying boxes of pennies...sifting them..then saving the copper your going to get rich then I have 2 words for you. "Crazy person".

Now....if you want to make your dent for a SHTF situation...(BTW - I am NOT a beleiver in this) then everytime you get change keep the penny or two that you get and put it in its own jar.

This is what I do. Why do I keep it? Because they are not being made anymore and copper is at an all time high.

I expend nothing by taking 3 sec's to check dates. But one day I may be doing with these pennies what I am now doing with silver dimes/quarters/half dollars.

Regards!

Re: Hording your pennies?
 

Actually this is a get rich SLOW scheme.
Rome was not built in a day, and our Rome will not be destroyed in a day either, But I intend to hoard all the tangible assets I can while this Titanic is sinking. Just like gold and silver, copper represents a miner going to the ground and digging up ore, mans labor, it just so happens there is more of it than the other PM's It is consumed and thrown out. Every day it becomes more expensive to get this mineral from the ground.
And someday when copper is perhaps 4 times higher than it is now, I will have paid $1.53 per pure lb for it and I will find a buyer for around 9 or 10 per lb. a whopping increase. You may do it too, except you will have a jar and I will have a truck full. No difference really. same profit margin. And as far as downside, I will not have spent any more than 1 cent on each penny.
I also find Indian and Wheat pennies as well as Hundreds of BU copper pennies from the 60's 70's that look like the day they were struck. I love the pennies from the 60's with the high relief, Lincoln looks so much more prominent on the obverse.
Silver is poor mans Gold, Copper is poor mans Silver.

Re: Hording your pennies?
 

The point I am trying to get across to you...it is not your idea does not have merit...but if you extended the amount of energy you have now to other endeavers you would be making more $.

So what...big f'ing deal...you will have a tuck load of pennies @ 4x face.. The amount to rent that dump truck you speak of will cost more than you will ever make from actually collecting and storing them like crazy.

You have a great idea but you need to do something else with your time. Go be a waiter somewhere and make a few bucks, buy PM's and then you will make 50X more than buy sifting pennies.

Re: Hording your pennies?
 

In Canada, it's illegal to melt pennies as scrap:

<table><tbody><tr><td> 11. (1) No person shall, except in accordance with a licence granted by the Minister, melt down, break up or use otherwise than as currency any coin that is current and legal tender in Canada.
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I assume that we have a similar law here? Right now in Canada, only those licensed by the government can take advantage of the value of the copper. I know a lot of us are talking about TSHTF kind of scenarioes, but if it's not-- if copper just goes to 10 times the current price, we may still not be able to take advantage of it.

I certainly don't have the equipment to melt copper.

Re: Hording your pennies?
 

Also when you go to sell them, whose gonna look at each penny? Or do you melt it all then and have it assayed?

Re: Hording your pennies?
 

I think you'd have to melt and assay it.

Incidentally, any stoneware grade pottery kiln can break the melting temperature of copper if someone was so inclined to destroy legal tender by melting.

Re: Hording your pennies?
 

Pretty much my point. :)

I will keep the pennies for value (if they ever gain) but I dont think I am going to buy boxes of them to make an extra buck as my time would be better spent else where methinks.

;)

Re: Hording your pennies?
 

I don�t hoard copper pennies (I don�t have the time or the patience), but I do hoard 40% Kennedy halves. They are mostly copper and since the price of the coin is based on the silver content the copper is basically free.
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It is true that right now no one will pay you a premium for the copper in the 40% Kennedys, but if the demand for copper continues to rise that could change in the future. Plus, if you shop around you can get these coins for less than silver spot. As it has been pointed out in other threads, many people don�t like to bother with 40% halves but the perception and value of the coins might change in the future. Free copper today might mean extra profits tomorrow.

Re: Hording your pennies?
 

Hey Papa,

In January you said this to another GIM member

"2 to 3 cents for wheat pennies

At least a buck for the Indian head pennies.

If you are looking to invest in copper this would be a poor way to do it.

Go out and buy yourself some sheets if you want to invest in copper or sort through your pennies you get in change.

Way pay 3 cents for the same penny you can get at the bank for 1 cent.

You are buying "coins" not copper. Although if you can get the wheats for 2 cents a peice and the indian head pennies for like 50 cents a peace then you will be doing pretty good.

I would not sell the Indians for any less than a buck as that is what most go for in G-4 condition. Assuming they are of higher quality (better shape) and depending on the dates you may do real well.

After it is all said and done with you can take them all to a dealer and then cash them in.
__________________
I won't be reconstructed. "


But your telling me its foolish and calling me a "CRAZY PERSON". but you tell this guy to "Go out and buy yourself some sheets if you want to invest in copper or sort through your pennies you get in change". are you kidding buy sheets and pay over $1.53 per pound now whos "CRAZY"
Perhaps you missed my original post mentioning that I have made a machine to "sift" as you say, my pennies. Go back and read it and then think about how much copper I am mining and how long it takes me to "sift" it at 280 coins per minute, how many can you sift by hand?
Be careful how you spin your webs on the web or you can be caught in a DOUBLE TALK situation just like now. See ya. Sporlan.:boxing:

Re: Hording your pennies?
 

Before anyone tries this I think you should do some research on the properties of copper. I looked into it at one time, and if I remember correctly, 100% pure copper is impossible, and I think the fumes might be toxic.

In fact, recently there has been a report regarding toxic polution in Canada where people are burning scrap electric wire to remove the copper. Just be careful.

I have a dream of someday starting a copper recycling business that produces 1,000 ounce copper bars, and maybe even 12 troy ounce copper bullion rounds. I think this would be awesome.

By the way, I heard a report the other day which stated that ther is not enough copper IN THE WORLD (above or below ground) to make running water and electricity a global standard. I think at some point copper will be in a similar situation as silver is now. I own PCU (Southern Copper) in my IRA, and I plan on holding it for a good long time.

Re: Hording your pennies?
 

See, there is always at least one smart guy (or gal) in every crowd). Thank you.

Re: Hording your pennies?
 

Copper is good stuff, but I believe silver and probably even gold would be better. It would be interesting to track equal weights of copper and silver for a while and see which is getting a bigger return on investment.

The silver situation is a lot more imminent than the copper situation, we have time to accumulate copper but I wouldn't forego silver for it.

Re: Hording your pennies?
 

I'm saving all my pre-82 pennies.

I'm not buying rolls and sorting thru them, but if the world holds out another 25 years, I have a feeling copper pennies will be worth a buck or two each.. atleast. The way inflation is moving.

Re: Hording your pennies?
 

I pick thru my change for copper pennies, as copper pennies are inflation proof I think:beer: . When all is said and done, only the penny and nickel will hold their value, all paper money will become BAD toilet paper and the larger coins will become washers and spacers .:puke:

Re: Hording your pennies?
 

Right, I would not tie-up a lot of my money into pennies at this point in the silver market. However, if one could make a 50% rate of return just for sorting-out pennies with the use of a machine in their spare time, he or she could use that profit to buy more silver.

Re: Hording your pennies?
 

I guess the same guy who would look through a $1000.00 dollar bag of 90% silver dimes.:D No, they just need to reach in and look at a couple of handfulls and if they spot any post 1982s it would be a "no sale".

Re: Hording your pennies?
 

Hello Ardent,
Once again you could use a scale and weigh the coins in a box, or rolled up. May not be perfectly accurate, but a good scale should be within a couple percent. My machine also "sifts" out the copper 1982's from the zinc. so I get 1982's on both chutes of the machine. I thought eventually because the copper pennies are actually "brass" you could find a copper user, with their own smelter, perhaps a valve manufacturer or a private company of sorts who needs the base metal. The copper pennies are 95% copper and 5% zinc making a high grade brass. The zinc are somewhere around ~97% zinc and ~3% copper. If the ratio is known you could simply mix coppers and zincs in the crucible to create different grades of red brass, or add some tin and get some grade of bronze. I do not ever intend to actually melt the coins as this may be i l l e g a l. But I will sell the coins to anybody for their base metal value. To reclaim the pure copper back into cathode, would be cost prohibitive and really a waste of resources. Just use them as they are for things that are needed everyday, such as brass fittings, copper fittings, wire, conductors, or even smash them an make fishing lures or something, perhaps even jewelry or thimbles. Or simply trade or hold them as do people with 90% silver.
When silver was first removed from circulation most people poo poo'ed the idea of ratholing the silver, and in fact the president (LBJ) said the two species of coins would circulate simultaneously, because there was no benefit to removing it. With the stockpile the government held they suggested they could control the base metal price, small miscalculation there LBJ. The same resistance is expected now. Remember most people are really zombies participating in the "Bread and Circuses" our brave leaders have presented.
</IMG> Take care Sporlan

Re: Hording your pennies?
 

2 words - OF COURSE !

....I'm pulling out all my copper pennies from change and I have buckets of rolls at a secure location.

0.92 cents per roll - sound schweet don't it ?!?!

Re: Hording your pennies?
 

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=4 width="100%" bgColor=#ffffff border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>http://www.coinflation.com/penny.gif</TD><TD>1959-1982 Cent (Copper) *</TD><TD>$0.01</TD><TD>$0.0199568</TD><TD>199.5600%</TD></TR><TR><TD>http://www.coinflation.com/nickel.gif</TD><TD>1946-2006 Nickel</TD><TD>$0.05</TD><TD>$0.0470004</TD><TD>94.0000%</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

I was just checking out coinflation.com a minute ago. A copper cent is now worth almost 2 pennies.

The nickel is getting awful close to being real money. I am still spending them, but once the metal value in a nickel exceeds the face value I know I won't be able to keep spending them. I won't start going out and 'buying' boxes of nickels though until they mint changes the metal content (to aluminum maybe?) of the nickels. I will just keep the ones I get in change until then.

:albertein

Re: Hording your pennies?
 

I don't plan to get rich or anything, but I'm saving all my pre-82 pennies for fun if nothing else comes of it.
By the way, I read that the pre-98 Canadian pennies are 98% pure copper. I had a handful of 'em and was curious so I looked it up.

Re: Hording your pennies?
 

Thanks for the great information! However, the way I look at it as soon as the nickels become worth more than their face value, you can expect a run on them. The way it is now at my bank the tellers go through the halves and search for the 40% silver ones. They are no fools! Do you think they will turn over those nickels to you then? And in addition, if you buy boxes after the "change" they will be mixed liked the pennies and you will have to sort them out.

Re: Hording your pennies?
 

Good point. I was just thinking that there is usually a decent lapse between the time when the mint announces a new coin, or change in coin, and it actually filters down to circulation. I was planning on using that time to load up on some boxes of nickels.

By the way, does anyone know the dollar amount of a box of nickels? Pennies come in $25 boxes, but I don't know about nickels. Just curious.

Re: Hording your pennies?
 

Nickels come in (50 rolls X $2) $100 boxes.

Re: Hording your pennies?
 

Well guys, I went out and bought $400.00 dollars in nickels today. All packed in tight $100.00 Brinks boxes. I live in a small city so I had to make the rounds to most of the banks. Some of the branches just didn't have a nickel to their name.:haha: Not really, but they couldn't sell me a whole box and I'm not messing with individual rolls at this stage of the game. I don't plan on opening the boxes. I'm using some of my reserve home cash to buy them. I put the charm out to the tellers. (Who happen to be female.:wink: ) One of the tellers told me that they we not the "new" nickels that are in demand. :clap2:

Maybe next time I'll ask them to wish me luck on the nickel slots.:D

P.S. Nickel was up today.

Re: Hording your pennies?
 

At what temprature does Nickle melt?

Re: Hording your pennies?
 

According to webelements.com, nickel melts at 1455 °C or 2651 °F.

A US nickel contains 75% copper, and 25% nickel.

The melting point of copper according to the same source is or 1085 °C or 1985 °F